How to Pivot Out of a Dream Job That No Longer Fits with Noreen Otto
Guest: Noreen Otto, Executive Director, Iowa Brewers Guild
In this episode of the Pivotista podcast, host Kristy Cook interviews public policy leader and nonprofit executive Noreen Otto, who shares her powerful story of making a mid-career pivot from a high-pressure corporate role to a more values-aligned position in the craft brewing industry.
Noreen opens up about the pivotal moments that led her to reassess her definition of success, including the toll of burnout, the weight of imposter syndrome, and the emotional complexity of walking away from what once felt like a dream job. She offers practical insights on navigating career transitions in your 30s and 40s, including the importance of self-reflection, career coaching, and building a support system that goes beyond your partner.
This conversation explores:
How to pivot out of a dream job that no longer fits
Why women in leadership often wait too long to ask for help
The role of identity, motherhood, and intuition in career choices
The importance of community, creativity, and celebrating small wins
How career change at 40 can lead to deeper alignment and fulfillment
Whether you're craving more autonomy, questioning what’s next, or trying to balance ambition with well-being, Noreen’s story is a must-listen reminder that giving yourself grace during a pivot isn’t weakness—it’s wisdom.
Takeaways:
Noreen's career journey reflects the importance of pivoting with intention.
Recognizing the need for change can lead to personal growth.
Career pivots can be a series of small moments rather than a single event.
Building confidence takes small, consistent steps.
Grace during transitions is essential for self-acceptance.
Imposter syndrome is a common challenge for high-achieving women.
Building a supportive network is crucial for navigating career changes.
Finding joy in creative outlets can enhance overall well-being.
Self-recognition and celebrating wins are vital for confidence.
Community engagement can provide fulfillment beyond professional success.
It's important to embrace discomfort in social situations for growth.
Career success is not solely defined by job titles but by personal happiness.
Memorable Quotes:
Noreen:
“I had achieved what I thought was the dream—and then realized it didn’t fit anymore.”
“Career coaching helped me realize: I wasn’t the same person at 39 that I was at 29.”
“It was one of the hardest decisions I’ve made professionally, but also the most honest.”
“We don't always need a crisis to make a change. Sometimes we just need clarity.”
“Giving yourself grace during a transition is not weakness—it’s the foundation for growth.”
“I didn’t need a plan right away. I needed space to think.”
“I had to learn that asking for help doesn’t diminish my leadership—it strengthens it.”
“I’m not just a professional. I’m a mom, a friend, a person—and I want to show up fully.”
“There’s power in creative outlets. You don’t have to monetize every passion.”
“It’s okay to outgrow a job—even one you fought hard to get.”
Kristy
“Success on paper isn’t the same as success in your body, your schedule, or your spirit.”
“I think so many women hit mid-career and feel like they can’t make a change. But they can.”
“You don’t have to justify your pivot to anyone. Feeling out of alignment is reason enough.”
“Sometimes we wait for a breaking point. But what if we listened sooner?”
“Support during a transition isn’t a luxury—it’s a strategy.”
“Our careers are important, but they aren’t the whole story of who we are.”
Chapters:
00:00 Introduction to Pivotista Podcast and Guest Noreen Otto
03:04 Noreen's Career Journey and Pivotal Moment
06:04 The Decision to Pivot: Finding Clarity and Permission
09:17 Navigating Self-Doubt and External Support
12:12 Grace in Career Transitions: Worst Case Scenarios
15:04 The Emotional Journey of Career Changes
18:01 Parenting and Career: Balancing Personal and Professional Life
21:05 Finding Time for Self-Reflection and Setting Boundaries
26:58 Finding Balance: The Power of Saying No
28:24 Navigating Career Transitions: From Corporate to Nonprofit
30:05 Overcoming Imposter Syndrome: Embracing Vulnerability
32:26 The Importance of Asking for Help
34:52 Building Confidence Through Small Steps
37:26 Celebrating Wins: The Need for External Recognition
41:06 Creative Outlets: Finding Joy in Passion Projects
44:26 Reflecting on the Journey: Lessons Learned
47:06 The Importance of Community: Socialization and Mental Health
52:12 Wrap Up
Liked this episode? You might also enjoy these other Pivotista episodes:
Connect with Noreen HERE!
🎧 Tune in now and start your pivot with confidence!
👉 Book a free strategy session with Kristy HERE to get personalized support in designing your next chapter.
Resources & Links:
📌 Learn more
📌 Follow Kristy on LinkedIn | Instagram | Facebook | TikTok
📌 Like, subscribe & leave a review on your favorite podcasting service—your support helps others find the show!
Disclaimer:
A friendly reminder: the information presented in this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only. It is not intended to diagnose, treat, or cure any medical condition, nor is it intended as a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always consult with your doctor or a qualified healthcare professional before making any decisions related to your health and well-being or starting any new wellness practice, including mindfulness and meditation.
Transcript:
Kristy Cook (00:00) Welcome to the Pivotista podcast, where we help women leaders turn their overwhelm into burnout-proof success. I'm Kristy Cook, your guide to shifting out of survival mode and into success that fuels your ambition and your wellbeing. If you've ever felt the tension between a role that looks perfect on paper and a deeper calling for more purpose, autonomy, or alignment, you are not alone. Today's guest brings both incredible depth and refreshing honesty to what it really means to pivot mid-career with intention and integrity. Noreen Otto began her career in public policy after attending law school, first working with the Iowa legislature and later serving as the head of government affairs for a multi-state retail company. After a major career shift, she returned to the world of policy where she now works as the head of Iowa's Craft Brewing Trade Association. She's also served a term on her city council, been honored as a 40 under 40, and continues to serve her community through numerous boards and foundations, all while raising two boys, designing and supplying gourmet charcuterie boards through her passion side project, Fly Over Food and learning to love fantasy football.
In this episode, Noreen shares what led her to make the courageous decision to step away from what once felt like a dream job, how she found clarity through mid-career coaching, and why giving yourself permission to professionally evolve and define success on your own terms is one of the most powerful moves a leader can make. Let's dive in.
Noreen, I'm so excited to have you here. Thank you for joining me. You know, before we hopped on, I did the math and after double checking it because I couldn't believe the number, I realized that we have known each other and been great friends for 22 years.
Noreen (01:59) This is fantastic. Yeah, it's wild, right? I just happened to be on campus just last night at Drake Law School and it was this beautiful spring night here in Des Moines and a group of our fellow friends went and heard this amazing speaker and we were walking in and the law school that we both went to was all lit up on this beautiful evening and I was like, can you believe like we have this incredible group of friends still for over 20 years and I'm like I wish 24 year old Noreen could be in the window of the library like peeping out at me she would be so relieved. She'd be so relieved to see that I still had these amazing female friends and that I still had like a cute outfit on that I hadn't become to hadn't given him fully to middle age so.
Kristy Cook (02:49) It worked.
Noreen (03:02) Yeah, it was a lovely moment. It was a lovely moment. Yeah, 22 years. Yeah.
Kristy Cook (03:05) Oh my gosh, I love that. 22, I can't believe it. Well, during that time, we have both lived many different eras. And I've seen you build such an impressive and wide ranging career in public policy and leadership. And yet like so many women who are listening, you reached a point at the height of your success then, and you're so very successful, but at the time where you knew something had to shift. I'd love to start a conversation there. If you can take us back to that pivotal moment in 2019 when you made the decision to step away from what had once felt like a dream job, what was going on for you at that time and what did it take to make that move?
Noreen (03:51) you it's always a series of small moments. And for me, it was definitely a little bit of the heat just kept getting turned up and up and up and up. And I was serving in a vice president role at a company of like seventy five thousand plus. I was traveling all the time. I was out in Washington, D.C. frequently. had a great paycheck. I felt is why I said the job offer came in eight years ago, seven years ago. And is what I wanted to do. This is like, I'm supposed to keep moving up. That's the thing, right? Type A overachiever. And yeah, the shoulds. And that role versus where I was at the end of 2018.
I was traveling way more for work. I've had been married for multiple years by that point. I have a great partner and we had had two children. I remember on Christmas Eve 2018, I was sitting, I couldn't sleep and I was really frustrated and December for moms is like a gauntlet. It's just there's all these expectations and all the magic. We do all the magic, right? And I think I had traveled twice that month for work and I was commuting about an hour, over an hour every day too. And I remember it was like one in the morning on Christmas Eve and I was alone sitting in the living room and I just had this moment where I was like, either I'm gonna like collapse or my job's gonna collapse or my marriage is gonna collapse. And I definitely don't want my marriage to fall apart. And, you know, I really want this, but I'm not fully present in any of these parts of my life. I've got to start looking around for something else because I don't know physically how to continue on this level of commitment. It was really hard.
You know, I've enjoyed hearing the stories from some of your other guests and these pivot moments are really different for everybody. And so mine has definitely felt like more of a long process and not like a single event. But I have a really of like sitting in front of the tree and kind of being like, boy, something this is not I don't know how I keep doing this. So yeah, that stands out to me.
Kristy Cook (06:18) Well, and how fitting to the Christmas tree is such a metaphor with all of its ornaments and, you know, decorations of all the chaos that could be happening as well.
Noreen (06:30) Yeah, well, and I put up the tree, all the presents were put under me and I have a, you know, a great help, but like, it was just, I think I just, I had been sick and yeah, just maybe this growing internal sense of dread. Yeah, it was, it was hard. It was a hard time.
Kristy Cook (06:48) And so you have this amazing realization and then what happened next.
Noreen (06:52) Mm-hmm. I sort of didn't know what to do. I didn't really know where to start because big part of my job was government affairs and lobbying and that world has changed a lot during our career time. Full transparency, like I got my start on a partisan background and partisan politics has shifted and changed and I knew that I couldn't be in the lobby, so to speak, anymore. And I wanted to maybe take a step and take a breather from being so close to the political world. It felt like it was getting a little more toxic and like I wasn't getting any joy out of it anymore. And so I kind of said, well, the government affairs is literally like my title and I don't think I want to do that. like, now what?
And, you know, I kind of just looked around and the one thing I feel like I did right with my pivot is I wasn't like, okay, I'm going to do X now and that's going to be my thing. I was like, I think I just need, I need an exit ramp and I just need to see where that takes me. because I thought I was going to be in this job for the rest of my career. I remember telling my siblings like, this is it. I've arrived. This is where I'm going to retire. And they were all like, what? because you know, nobody our generation does that anymore. And so I tried to tell myself the next thing doesn't have to be perfect. But I do need to move on to the next thing. It's time to see what else is out there. And my husband was very much like. OK, so you take this next job and you don't like it, like, who cares? Then you find another one. That was the biggest step for me was thinking okay, this is an exit ramp and I can change again if it doesn't work, right? And make it sound easy, but yeah, it was a lot of like the next thing doesn't have to be forever either.
Kristy Cook (08:49) I love that our skills go with us wherever we end up. We take what we have worked so hard to develop with us when we move.
Noreen (08:52) Yes! Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, so I didn't feel like I made a hard pivot. I felt more like my career change was sort of an exit ramp from what I thought it was gonna be to just trying to be more open to what it could be.
Kristy Cook (09:11) It's amazing to sort of let the universe do its job as you kind of push the buttons.
Noreen (09:17) Yeah, and learning to be kind to myself too. you and I, Kristy, in our friendship, both made some big career changes and both went to law school, but don't necessarily have lawyer in our title. And so I think we've both probably done a lot of work about, you know, I achieved the school, but it doesn't define me. And it doesn't, it doesn't have to be my career, right. And so being comfortable with that. concept of being more than just what my job title is at the moment. And it's something I continually work on too.
Kristy Cook (09:48) And how do you allow yourself to give yourself grace in those moments where self-doubt is creeping in or you're taking a step and wondering, my gosh, am I blowing up my whole life? What's going on? Yes, your sweet husband was so great at letting you know this isn't permanent, but when you're in that moment, it can be so hard to remember that, which is why those external voices are so important. But talk to me about grace.
Noreen (10:17) Yeah. Yeah. So, so two things I do. One is going to sound familiar because one of your other guests talks so much about it would play out the worst case scenario. And I actually still do this pretty regularly and I am teaching one of my older kids to do He the spiral like we all do sometimes I'm like, okay. If I leave this what I thought my dream job was and I go do a job and it's kind of terrible, what happens? hard for me. Maybe I'm kind of embarrassed. I have to spend time searching for a new job, like financially it will be all right. have some stability. Like who cares? this the 2020s it's not like the old rules apply.
So I would kind of play out this like, what's the worst thing that we have to fill out a lot of health insurance paperwork, right? If you switch again, I look around, I build another network, I learned some new skills. You know, most of the time, like all the goods things that I could still take away in the worst case scenario would outweigh the bad things and a lot of times bad things were just like, it's gonna be kind of embarrassing or like, I have to tell everyone that I was wrong about this job and I have to move again. I don't know, who cares, right? So when you kind of play it out, the worst case scenario thing, you're like, okay, I can do this, right? I can do that. The other thing is a lot, I think a lot of women do this consciously or unconsciously, but I have sort of like, I read an article one time and now I always think of them as my board of directors.
And it's you and a couple of our other law school friends and, you know, my sisters and a couple other mentors and people I've worked with in the past, like, hey, I'm thinking about this. what do you think? So I think you find grace for yourself by those external people who can give you a slightly more objective view. You know, they're a step removed from you and your family. But like a board of directors, they also have a similar interest, right? Like they have a duty to see you succeed by way of your so sometimes just asking the board of directors, what do you think? Or like, I feel still stupid. And then having six people be like, are you crazy? you learned this, this and this or. You you did this thing and it was brave.
You know, being reminded of those good qualities because you can really, especially when you're a perfectionist, I think you can really lose track of what those things are. Actually, if you look, I know this is the audio medium, but this is a photo of all of us doing a wine tasting. So I hung my diploma and then above it I hung this photo of a group of girlfriends to remind me are my people here cheering me on and they're here to. be my team to bounce things off of and finding those people really helps me to give myself grace too, because they give it to me.
Kristy Cook (13:11) I love it so much. just gives me chills. And there's so much in there that you hit on. You know, the first part about, hey, know, worst case scenario, I get some new skills, some experience out of this. It's such a switch in mindset. it's a really growth focused mindset that you have there, which can help so much, especially when on the other hand, we start going into, as you touched on your second point, this, the story spiral, right? All these crazy stories we're telling ourselves and how we can really use those external voices, our external self-found board of directors slash chosen family. So powerful.
Noreen (13:45) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, there you go. Yeah, and it's hard. I will say it's hard. mean, you know, I think the you do a great job of reminding folks, but, you know, discussions and a podcast like this, I never would want to give someone the impression I made the switch and I ran it past my friends and then life was good. I mean, I left this dream job and, know, this is my exit ramp. But it was an exit ramp to like a year and a half of work on myself and years of being like I couldn't hack it at that company and what does that say about me?
A lot of like I wasn't good enough to stay there. All these amazing people are still working at that company and they loved it and I would look around the room and be like what is wrong with me? And it took a long time to get through that. So not every is a a 180 hard pivot turned on your heel, a kickball change. For me, it was definitely more like a very long exit ramp to a new interstate.
Kristy Cook (15:01) Yeah, and I remember those conversations that we used to have about that and how I could see you finding yourself along the way to now this place where you're at, where you are still kicking butt, but living your authentic self. Like you're just glowing, you you professionally Noreen are the person that I saw as we were, growing through adulthood together in your joy and happiness when we were out doing fun things, right? And now I can see that. But it's so true, but it takes so much work. That's where the tears are coming from, right? Because a lot of effort went into it. I went through the same thing, you know, switching from practicing into coaching is two years after what I felt like was blowing up my life that I had to dig myself out. But it's so much work.
Like you said, it felt like a must. I had to do it because I couldn't continue living in authentically. And I think for a lot of high achieving, emotionally intelligent women, you you kind of it's either the pot boiling or something happens where you're like, this is not this is not right. And I know it deep, deep down. And I know it's gonna take a while to work through this. But this is not this is not the fit. And I think trusting that intuition, even though it's very inconvenient sometimes. I'm trusting that this discomfort feeling is not good. Yeah, we gotta figure out what's happening here. It's worth it and trying to remind ourselves with that grace piece about, you know, I've sure I've felt before in my life, but I've never not survived it. I've never not, come out the other end in a better position. That tells me that I have the strength within me to keep finding the path and it's gonna take readjusting. It's not a straight line. It is a jagged up and down process to get there. And what's great right now also doesn't mean that it's gonna feel like a fit five years from now and that's okay too.
Noreen (16:58) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yes, you know, I was, I love that's one of the things I really love about these conversations that you're having is that they are people sort of mid career, right? Because some of this realization also, I think just comes a little bit with age. And you have the courage and some understanding and frankly, you're maybe in a position in your career where you can make a change, just have a little bit more stability, you have some that travel with you, you know, you've put some time into building that ability to take the pivot. But also circumstances have changed now multiple times, You come out of school, you're so broke, you know, and you're young, wild and free. You know, I didn't have a mortgage back then. And that one of the notes I made actually at the top of my notes here was also, you know, those circumstances around you.
When I got married, you'd known Adam as long as you've known me, basically my husband, and we literally were like, we don't know if we want to have children. I love you, I know I want to be married. We agreed, we were both kind of like, we'll see where life takes us. Maybe, maybe not, right? It wasn't something I had felt a tug to my whole life. And that changed for us. I mean we got to a point and we were like we really want to start a family and look around our friends are having kids and we've started we felt that tug so you know, we have two boys they're amazing and that really changes what you want in ways you can't predict. I mean it changed my political beliefs in a lot of ways and being a parent you really just don't know what kind of parent you want to be.
And that was one of the other big things is, you know, I was traveling and I had this amazing role and this great title and I was really proud of that, but also, and women can do that and they should and figure out and have a nanny or use child care. We had two nannies and full-time daycare at one point, and I just, were certain little things that I was like, I am uncomfortable for me being this kind of parent. I was unable to ever drop my older one off for school just because of the schedule in my commute and the expectations of my role. the few times when I would get him to drop him off at school, I cried every single time. I was like, every time I would be like, what's happening right now? But something about watching his little backpack go into the building every day, it broke me.
And I think part of it was that I was like, I want to do this every single day. I want to be part of these normal everyday moments and I'm giving those things up and they don't matter for everyone. Families look different. Careers look different. It's a luxury to have some ability to choose what kind of parent you get to be. But that was something I never anticipated, you know, sitting in 2 L constitutional law. Or doing my policy internship in the state capitol when I was 24 years old. You don't anticipate that you're gonna want your career to be flexible for your kids. You just can't know till life takes you to those places and acknowledging those and putting the work in so that I can be the kind of parent that I wanna be. And you give up some things too, but yeah, I'm glad to hear I'm glowing because, yeah, parenthood's no joke either. That's a separate, that's a different podcast.
Kristy Cook (20:36) Well, as you continue to do all this work and self-reflection and you're still busy, just as you heard in the intro, just as busy as ever, how do you find time to still check in with yourself and make sure that you're feeling like you're still on the right path or if something needs to shift professionally, personally?
Noreen (21:04) Mm hmm. Um, I think it's that same. think when knowing that something's not right is that that gut feeling like what we were talking about earlier, you're like, oh, something doesn't feel good. This isn't working. You know, and trying to I have way more flexibility now than I ever have before. And so I'm pretty and now I'm 44, too. So I'm pretty conscientious about saying no to things. learning to, yeah, one of the things I learned, I sort of had like a, almost like an interim job, my exit ramp job. I ended up getting, I promise I'll come back to this, but I end up getting laid off and I wore all these different hats at the company and it was during COVID and we were, a specialty food company. And nobody was eating specialty foods in April of 2020 and basically until April of 2022.
So one of the roles that I was asked to take on there was basically running HR. And they're like, well, you're an attorney and you seem emotionally aware and you're the CAO and we're looking around and no one else can be the point. So we contracted with an external company, but I had to be the point person and I had once upon a time reported to the chief administrative officer at my prior company and I had learned some really good skills from her. And we didn't always get along, but you know, she, I remember she talked about having hard conversations and suddenly I was in, we were in this catastrophic pandemic. I was asked to take on HR and I had to have some really hard conversations with people.
So now, I've sort of that skill into my real life I'm always like, man, 60 seconds of straightforward discomfort can save you so much pain. And you're like, no, I don't wanna say no, I can't be on your board. You know, I live in a small My husband and I, joke that we've served on every board in the community between the two of us, you know. I'm really bad about not raising my hand and things like that, but learning to look someone in the eye and respect yourself enough and respect them enough to have one difficult conversation has really been a skill that has served me well, both personally and professionally. I don't think that aligns industry's mission right now, but thanks for the phone call.
You know, I don't have to promise I don't have to have lunch with you because I have no interest in your product or what you're thinking about, you know, to, I don't have the capacity to send on this board right now. And I don't really want to give you less than my best if I'm going to send on this board. So I think that's part of it finding time and checking in with myself is making sure that I'm saying yes to enough things, but also that I'm saying no to some things too. So having The time and the ability to say yes and no to things is a big deal for me.
Kristy Cook (24:10) It's so important because you're right, when we don't show up our best self, it's not going to serve anyone. And then we're going to walk away drowning in guilt feelings as well, which we carry on to our home life and everything else.
Noreen (24:22) Mm-hmm. Yes. Yes, 100%. And I'm in, it's not a smaller role. I love my job. What I do is I feel really good about the work I do. But I have way more flexibility and autonomy. And so tapping into that to make sure I can do the most good has been really, really helpful just across the board personally and professionally to me. I have the capacity to do things I care about, not just my job.
Kristy Cook (24:56) So good, so fundamental, so hard to do. Well, I want to talk about your current role because it was a big shift for you going from corporate America into the nonprofit sector. And not only that, but also male dominated sector. And I'm just wondering, was there imposter syndrome at all that you had to deal with switching into these this role? And if so, how did you navigate through that? I remember you telling me that, you show up with your blazer and your your cute outfits and you know, and you're yeah.
Noreen (25:31) And everyone's in baseball hats and brewery t-shirts. I'm really grateful that I've said a lot of times that I could not have done this job in my 30s, but this is the right job for me in my 40s. And the exit ramp job is really kind of what got me here. So that cultural shift from a giant corporate, I wear a suit every single day. So even the joke is it's taken like five years for my wardrobe to pivot. I own so many suits. And I'm like, I wear a suit five times a year now, maybe, maybe 10.
So, you know, having that little bit of that longer pivot, that exit ramp kind of helped me to make a little bit of a shift. I definitely had to turn down some of my corporate intensity going from that 78,000 people to 78 people. in a company and now I'm a team of one. So it's, yeah, it was really good to have some time to build up my own confidence in myself and to feel like, okay, there's not 300 layers of people. It's gotta be a little bit more of me. And so I'm also gonna have to speak up and say more like, I don't know how to do this.
And that's not a bad thing because my job went from pretty narrow to really wide. And so, you know, I went from just politics and government affairs and reports and presentations hey, you can manage HR too, or hey, we're going to send you to this trade event, or can you style cheese and run this catalog? That's a real thing I got to do. It actually was really fun. But when you're all of sudden in your role as much broader, I learned really quickly to need help, I don't know how to do this, who do we have, who's an expert, what have we done in the past? And that was something I hadn't had to do previously.
And it was hard, it was a little hard, but that has really helped counter some of that feeling of imposter syndrome and the role I'm in now. I got comfortable this is new for me, that's not my specialty. You hired me because I'm really good at government affairs and I know how to work with the media, but I don't know how to brew beer, you know, and I'm never going to know how to brew beer I made that joke this morning. I'm like, well as a reminder you guys brew a lot more beer than I do so, you know, I think that transition helped me to feel a little bit more confident saying when I didn't know things and saying like look, I know you want me in this job but I'm really good at this thing and really not good at this thing. And so we're gonna pay someone to do all their accounting now.
So, that was, accounting was terrifying. I learned how to learn how to do QuickBooks, which honestly, everyone learn how to do QuickBooks in college, because just that confidence boost. I was like, we like we need an accountant. We need someone to double check my work and do our taxes and all that. So yeah, so I think that learning to ask for help a little bit definitely helps with the imposter syndrome. And at 40 something, I like leaning in sometimes in my role to the things that make me different. I think the fact that I show up to a meeting and I'm the only one in the blazer, I'm like, that's what you guys pay me for, right? You want me to be polished, you want me to represent you and you guys all deserve this.
You deserve someone who's a little more corporate and a little more intense and is going to speak up because also it's only just me. So I got to kind of help us out and fight for a voice and things like that. And so leaning into that, you know, in a male-dominated world, using that as an asset in a way that stand out in lots of different ways has been very helpful and very healthy for me too. imposter syndrome is a it's a real thing and it is rough. And who say they've never had it I'm like that's incredible what drugs are you on because it's brutal sometimes yeah but it's definitely getting better and some of that comes with just like learning to ask for help and learning to lean into those things that maybe make you different are actually an asset.
Kristy Cook (29:36) Yeah Yeah, and I also want to drive home to our point earlier. It's not like you just decide, oh, I've got to be brave in this moment and ask this question. And all of a sudden now it's easy for me to always ask for help and always show up as myself and, you know, be the person that stands out in the room. I'm struck by something I was listening to at a conference the other day where this woman people learn to network. And she was saying all it takes is three seconds of courage to show up, put your hand out, shake a hand and start the conversation. If you can just get through the three seconds of courage to try and see what it feels like to ask for help or walk in the room dressed as yourself to help make you feel more confident in your own shoes.
And then again, you know, to what we talked about earlier, if it doesn't work, then at least you've tried it and you're not just sitting there twiddling your thumbs worrying, my gosh, I'm gonna have to take like 20 hours and teach myself X, which I could just have an expert help me do in an hour.
Noreen (31:03) Yeah, yeah. And I still have those moments. mean, there was something our accountant asked me a question about something and I was like, okay, like, I think it's this, it might be this. And I finally was like, what are you doing, Noreen? And I was like, I don't know. That's what we pay you for. Can you give me the answer? Right. And I was like, good job. You admitted you didn't know something you know, and I think that's some of that is like admitting you don't know or confidently saying I could use your help because my expertise is here. Some of that for me helps me get over imposter syndrome because it's a reminder that one of my strengths is seeing where the gaps are and what we need to do to fill in those gaps and it's not always me who fills in those gaps.
Kristy Cook (31:48) And that echoes back to the same realization that you had in the beginning where you were talking about, I'm doing all these things, how can I just stay in the lane that feels best for me and figure out all the other things? And there's strength in vulnerability and it takes baby steps to learn that, but it's there and it exists.
Noreen (31:56) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm hmm. I couldn't agree more that the baby steps thing and and it feels good when you do it too like, I got through that and it was uncomfortable, but three seconds of discomfort, you're like, my God, I survived. Right. It kind of goes back to the worst case thing. It's like play these things out. And that microcosm of I'm going to do the 60 second difficult conversation, I'm going to do the approaching the stranger and putting my hand out for 10 seconds and it's going to be really weird. if I play this out in my mind, what's the worst that happens? They laugh at me and run away? That's not going to happen, right? You're going to get through it. And that, that confidence kind of builds on itself. And you know, it sounds really basic, but it's definitely something that's a lifelong strategy and goal. So I don't have that innate confidence. I'm definitely, it somehow holds hands with fake it till you make it, right? Kind of same idea. Yeah, fake it till you make it.
Kristy Cook (33:03) Yep. Yeah, having the confidence in yourself to know you can figure it out, but you've got to give yourself the opportunity to try. And it also sounds, you know, what I'm hearing there also is it sounds like you're taking time to give yourself a little pat on the back for your wins, which is so easy to blast through, right? We don't do that enough much easier to take a criticism in than a compliment, right? And so it's really struck me does sound like you're doing that. You're taking those times to celebrate your wins, no matter how small.
Noreen (33:40) Mm-hmm. Yeah, and part of also knowing myself. I know now at 44 that I, you know, for a better or worse, I need external appreciation. And I'm in a role now where I think it was like my maybe my six month review or my my first the Brewers Guild. I did my one year review and I was sitting with the whole board and there are these people who would really help me. It was not a rough first year, but a lot of like, my God, what, what, what am I doing? What's this? And I kept saying I would uncover rocks and there would be a mess underneath. And I was like, my God. So I was in this year end review and someone at the end just was like, Noreen, we just, we just really love having you. And I burst into tears. And very unexpectedly and I think they were all like, what is happening?
And I just, had this moment where I was like, I'm in this much less sort of lauded big important quote unquote, square quote job than I thought I would be in. my work feels so much more appreciated than it ever has before. Taking that moment to realize that was really important to me. It's my fuel. I need that again, better or worse. Maybe I should go to therapy for that. But you know, I'm an elder millennial. I need some external recognition of my work. And so being in a role where I get that and sometimes I have to give it to myself too. So where you're saying taking the moment to appreciate like, my God, I just admitted I didn't know something in an email and now I can get that figured out and that feels really good, good job of giving myself that recognition is really important too, especially if you're a team of one.
So just kind of making sure I'm getting feedback that I'm on the right track and occasionally that feedback is from myself. So, knowing that about myself in my 40s is helpful and maybe that will change with time and wisdom, maybe therapy. But yeah, I think understanding the need for actual good feedback and what that does to kind of fuel me and fill my tank has been really helpful.
Kristy Cook (36:05) It's great. Yeah, I feel like each decade we're learning more about ourselves and what what it takes to make us tick and keep us happy. And, you know, one thing that I know you do is for your creative outlet, you have started this passion project on the side called Fly Over Food, which I just love seeing your posts about.
Noreen (36:12) Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, it really, it really started during COVID. I got to do some food styling in my sort of exit ramp role at this specialty food company. I sort of taught myself I watched all these YouTube videos about food styling and taking photos of cheese and like read all these articles and learned about lighting and spent some time with a professional photographer and you know, I just loved doing these, themed boards and all. And people were like, man, you know what, I have a birthday party. Could you make one for me? I'll pay you for it. And I was like, sure, that's not hard. And so just slowly, I was like, well, this is kind of a nice little side hustle and some fun. I call it my cheese money. It's like my fun money. Yeah.
I just like that because for me, it's You know, it's far away from public policy and reading and analytical. It's all visceral and One of the things I've definitely realized is my probably my greatest joy in life is people coming together over food or drinks, which I think lends itself great to the role I'm in, which has, you know, community and spending time with other people at the core. And so this cheese board thing, yeah, it's super fun. It's a good way to feed that and celebrate And a nice outlet for me to have something that I feel like I do creatively is helpful. It's good for me.
Kristy Cook (37:55) It's such a carry forward too. I remember in law school, we were all broke and you know, just kind of living off our student loans and you would throw these extravagant, beautiful dinner parties for us, which were amazing.
Noreen (38:04) That's so sweet. It was fun. Yeah, I think I'm a little bit of a planner at heart. I do actually a fair amount of event planning in this role, which I always say I don't really like it and then I can't stop doing it. I'm an enneagram eight. So it's like, I'll just plan it. I'll do it. I'll plan it. And so it feeds into that a little bit too, but. Yeah, it's really fun. just did someone was throwing a 40th birthday party. So I did two boards for her last week and people just are so excited about it. And I think it helps me both creatively and I get to eat cheese and it brings joy to other people. So I mean, what's better than that? Like that Venn diagram, that sweet spot in the middle, eating cheese with friends and feeling What's better than that? But yeah, it's it's it's fun.
Kristy Cook (38:51) Well, to that Venn diagram, really worked hard to find your bring in the different aspects that fulfill you as a person. It's taken decades so inspiring. And I'm just wondering, as we're sort of winding down the conversation looking back on everything that you've gone through, accomplished, navigated, learned about yourself. If we go back to that girl in law school looking out the window, what do you wish you would have known then that you know now?
Noreen (39:24) I'm gonna cry. Yeah, the path is not straight, right? The path is winding and you're gonna learn your whole life. You're gonna do these new things. And at the end of the day, you cannot judge yourself by anyone measuring tape, right? it's gotta feel right, it's gotta be your life, and it's gonna be really hard sometimes to know if it is or not. And then I'd probably call you guys and go out and have beers and then I would probably be we're gonna go get a giant tattoo and it says you are not your career. Girl! you are a fully formed person and it's not just going to be your title that that's going to bring you joy and self-worth. Yeah and then we'd all go out and stay till like two in the morning. But yeah I think just you know 24 year old Noreen was like hyper focused on career and title and up up up and just maybe giving her a hug and saying like the path is going to be winding and it's going to be more than your title girl.
And when you find that good spot, it's going to feel lot better than a title ever will. I know, I know, I'm going to cry. But yeah, and then for sure we would go out after that. And going out tops, I have a going out top on.
Kristy Cook (40:45) Magic. Do you have anything that you want to highlight and share with our listeners before we sign off?
Noreen (41:04) man, this has been so wonderful. Thank you. Yeah, you know, we talked about it a little bit with talking about the cheese boards and the importance of sort of friendships and having, you know, a board around you. the heart of all that is the human part of career and life. And something I'm talking about a lot that I'm... sort of soapboxing to everyone who will listen right now. In my world of craft brewing, we're seeing a decline in socialization, particularly with Gen Z.
And it is no coincidence that it parallels a huge spike in isolation, anxiety, and loneliness that we're seeing primarily in the United States. The pandemic escalated this problem. It's really exacerbated by smartphones, but human beings are hardwired to come together over cheese or dinner or beer. We literally cannot survive with a smartphone from our couch. It's hurting us as our mental health. It's hurting us as a culture. It's hurting our politics. It's hurting our communities. And so my big passion project, I'm talking a lot about this and craft brewing is come out, come to your local brewery, find your friends, meet, even if your glass is full of soda or hard seltzer, it doesn't have to be an IPA, and we drink lots of other things too, but come out and just be around people. It is really good for us.
We're losing the ability to be uncomfortable in those social situations and get through them. There's all these psychology studies that were like, I hate networking. It's so awkward. And actually, like when people report after they get these huge dopamine and serotonin boosts from interacting with a stranger in a positive way. And so we're avoiding all these things that are really important to our socialization and our our culture and our society. So my big soapbox come out, share a glass of something with someone, share a cheese board and talk to people because that's how we're all gonna get through a career and otherwise.
Kristy Cook (43:11) Yeah, yeah, we need our support system. We need our chosen board of directors. And you might just find people to put on that board of directors if you get outside of your house and socialize a little.
Noreen (43:16) Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's really important and we all frankly should be doing more of it. It would be good for our society. It would be good for us as people and yeah, it fills us up. We're hardwired to interact with other human beings. Yeah, it's wild. I'm like crazy Subbox lady about it right now. But yeah, it's great. So everyone's homework from this is find an amazing career coach because it's life changing. And then go have a beer with a bunch of people. At your local brewery. That's that's everybody's homework. I'll meet you there.
Kristy Cook (43:47) Sounds good to me. I'll hop a plane and find you in Iowa. What an episode. If Noreen's insights resonated with you and you'd love to follow her story, please be sure to connect with her on LinkedIn, which you can find in our show notes. Noreen's story is such a powerful reminder that even the most accomplished careers deserve a second look. when something no longer fits. Her willingness to reflect, reassess, and take bold action, not just once, but multiple times throughout her career is something every mid-career woman can learn from.
Whether you're navigating your own next chapter or supporting others through theirs, I hope Noreen's story not only inspired you, but also provided some validation. It takes strength to step back, reassess, and choose a new path, especially when you're on a job that appears to be working from the outside, but maybe doesn't feel great on the inside. Her insight about seeking the right kind of support during a transition is one we can all take to heart. I know it can be difficult to admit to yourself that you need a change in your life and that it's even harder to vocalize that realization to others. But support during career and life transitions is a fundamental part of successfully navigating through it. And that's where I would love to help you.
If you want to redefine your success in a way that fuels your ambition and your wellbeing, I'd love to support you. Visit pivotista.com to learn more or connect with me on LinkedIn you can access through the show notes and start exploring how we can design your burnout proof success together. Until next time, remember your choice to pivot out of overwhelm isn't a sign of defeat. It's a power move.
